Are Molvis really Jahil?

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Smooth_daddy

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Why is it that everybody (most youngsters) in Pakistan thinks Molvis are Jahil and incapable of doing anything right?
Posted 05 Oct 2005

nikama says
yaar,all mullas are not jahil but the problem is that only those children go to madrassas who are either Lawaris or are good for nothing type.no sane father will send his brightest child into a madrassa.sab apanay laaiq bachon ko dr.,eng.,or business man banana chahtay hain.so if mullas are jahil,we all are responsible for that.we think that proper religious education should be given to mentally retarded only.munafiqat
Posted 05 Oct 2005

if mullas are jahil,we all are responsible for that
Posted 05 Oct 2005

Ashii says
soo true freddy

and soo true ather (mujhe yakeen nahi aa raha k aap k mu se sahi baat nikli)



waise mujhe to yeh samajh nahi i aaj tak
who do we call a molvi,,, jiss ki bhi darhi ho wohi molvi
jo 5 namazein parhta ho wohi alim
aur jiss ne hadees ki 1 book parhi ho wohi mufti

define me wot do u call a MOLVI first
Posted 05 Oct 2005

Sall you asked very fundamental question of how to difine and what makes a molvi? I don't have any answers for you. This topic focuses on general feeling about anyone percieved to be molvi.
Freddy, you got right on it
I think athar repeated Freddy's opinion in exclamation.

After extended observations I have some drawn up conclusions. I'll present those a bit later. i first want to see how you guys draw it up.
Posted 06 Oct 2005

BadShaH1 says
Yes some moulana's dont have much oversight of the uptodate surroundings.
Posted 06 Oct 2005

SALL said:

soo true freddy

and soo true ather (mujhe yakeen nahi aa raha k aap k mu se sahi baat nikli)



waise mujhe to yeh samajh nahi i aaj tak
who do we call a molvi,,, jiss ki bhi darhi ho wohi molvi
jo 5 namazein parhta ho wohi alim
aur jiss ne hadees ki 1 book parhi ho wohi mufti

define me wot do u call a MOLVI first



i quoted nikama post
Posted 06 Oct 2005

nikama says
in religious terms we the ordinery muslims are a lot more jahil because hum to bachay ke kaan main azaan denay ke liay bhi mullas ke muhtaj hain
Posted 06 Oct 2005

BadShaH1 says
yea thats a point too.
Posted 07 Oct 2005

Ashii says
ather
thori deir to khush hone dena tha


SD
waiting for your next post
Posted 07 Oct 2005

aikalone says
soo true freddy

and soo true ather (mujhe yakeen nahi aa raha k aap k mu se sahi baat nikli)



waise mujhe to yeh samajh nahi i aaj tak
who do we call a molvi,,, jiss ki bhi darhi ho wohi molvi
jo 5 namazein parhta ho wohi alim
aur jiss ne hadees ki 1 book parhi ho wohi mufti

define me wot do u call a MOLVI first

There is 8 yrs course named as "Darse Nizamee" which makes a man molvi. Then after that 1 yrs Dura Hadees course thats makes man Aalim. Then there is anotehr 2 yrs course called takhasus (specialization). After than any Aalim can be called Mufti but only if he is able to answers of peoples in the light of Quran and Sunnah.

I think it will help you.

Posted 25 Oct 2005

Badal says
Smooth_daddy said:

Why is it that everybody (most youngsters) in Pakistan thinks Molvis are Jahil and incapable of doing anything right?



Molvi means a scholar from whom we take guidance in the matters of relegion, i asume

Firstly, bcos most (not every) ppl today are unable to understand "who the molvis are".

* A person with a beard is not a molvi, he is merely observing a Sunnah (if he intended to do so)
* A Hafiz e Quran is not a molvi, he has just memorised the Quran, not learnt it.
* A person who leads us in prayer is not a molvi, he our Imaam only who should be pious man, not necessarily a scholar.

If someone tries to take guidance from those people, they misguide him, and he makes an opinion that "Molvis" are jahil, then he himself in on error.

Secondly, bcos of some self taught, neem Mullas who pretend to be Molvis, specially in rural area where literacy rate is much low, so people easily believe them. I dont mean ppl should be doctors or enginners to be considered literate.

And thirdly, the most common reason why we consider them "jahil", "backward" etc is that now if someone asks us to pray, we say he is a Molvi. If someone tell us to protect our gaze, to wear hijab etc we say he is a Molvi. We label anyone Molvi to be sarcastic, to express our displeasure towards them. Sometimes to express out hate towrds the Sunnah of the Prophet, if we see a man with beards comming, we say 'Lo! a Molvi is comming"
Posted 25 Oct 2005

Badal says
who is freddy here? i thought its faradiya. is fradiya is now nikama?

i agree to you, ppl wish their bright childern should become doctors, engineerins, lawyers, scientists etc. but its not that "only those children go to madrassas who are either Lawaris or are good for nothing type". yes many of them are. i have seen many brilliant minds who are studying in madrassas. can we say the students who come from other countries to learn are lawaris? i agree if we cant get Molvis of quality from these madrassas, the we are responsible, bcos we are not willing to devote our brilliant minds to relegious studies.
Posted 25 Oct 2005

Thanks everybody
Badal, aikalone - right on target

I'll only add to your observations.

Term jahil in paki society is used more in a rhetoric fashion than in a literary manner - meaning people have no or little knowledge or understanding of modern lifestyle. It may be true for some just like those who didn't have higher education to polish or nurture their skills. Yet there are some who did get higher education but then locked their minds for any advancement. This actually is true in many secularly educated people.

Just like badal said, there are some who may have acquired skills, like memorizing Quran or leading prayers etc. but didn't actually grasp the knowledge like any other skilled laborer, like car mechanic, barbers, butchers, plumber... who don't have engineering level knowledge to be creative.

Irony is, we, as a society, demand such low skilled mullah to fill voids in our daily life. Because religion is the last thing on our days agenda and so is anything related to it. Then, all of a sudden we need services of a Mulla to perform a ritual (azan in baby's ears, quran khani ...), So who needs a scholar to do just that. Low skilled mullahs come in handy to perform the task. Just like who needs an engineer to fix a broken tap.

So Islamic services are just like any other services industry. But then, we value those services so low that people in this industry make little money. So who wants a profession where there's little money and low status? poors and outcasts of the society take up such professions.

Believe you me, we want jahil mullahs. In a Iftar party, just the other day, someone mentioned of a need for masjid. Though we have several masajid in our locale, but need was felt because the "Imam" of the masjid doesn't fit the persona of a traditional Imam. Because he wears suits, he is not poor and not going from door to door to provide quran teaching services to their kids - in short, how come he has high self-esteem. It is unacceptable to some that Imam speaks fluent English - he should be Urdu or Punjabi speaking...and should live off of whateva food and provisions handed down to them.

In summary, we reject mullahs who want to be modern and versed in secular as well as religious knowledge. We expect them to practice religion in traditional ways as our symbols but not as our role-models. And when they try to do that, we don't own them.
Posted 26 Oct 2005

mmja says
molvi say kharab kom pak main koi nahin or yeh bhi sach hai kay pak main jo kuch sharam haya hai woh molvyion ki wajah say hi hai so 75/25
Posted 26 Oct 2005

this thread is to seek reasons more than judgments. So tell us why you made the statement you did?
Posted 26 Oct 2005

mmja says
yar jis banday ki language sab say kharab ho woh paka madarsay main padrta hoga,unko muft ki roti todrnay kay alawah koi kam nahin,falahn masjid main namaz na padro,yahan khudkash hamla karo janat main jayio gay or kuh
Posted 26 Oct 2005

Desi_MC says
i don like ma paki molvis in pk......
huh
ima tell u detail lata on.....

but i seen Dr Tahir-ul-Qadri's son cant remem his name.....
but hes a good scholar...... n full of knowledge.....
actually hes the 1 who knws sumthing real n actual.....

n e way
holla bckk
Posted 26 Oct 2005

"yar jis banday ki language sab say kharab ho woh paka madarsay main padrta hoga,unko muft ki roti todrnay kay alawah koi kam nahin,falahn masjid main namaz na padro,yahan khudkash hamla karo janat main jayio gay or kuh"


I have seen very well educated people with foul mouth. I can assure you they have not even seen the pic of a madrassah.

If madrassah can't correct the mouth of a person, then madrassah is a problem.

You wld be surprised to know there are extremist christian groups who motivate followers to fight against those who reject Jesus as their deity. There are Hindu extremists and Jewish extremists who do that but its only Muslims who are shown on TV alll over the world.

Point here is, your observations are valid but they are not universal.
Posted 26 Oct 2005

mmja says
jis ka bap kafar tha or woh bhi us par amel karta hai shayedddddd
Posted 26 Oct 2005

mmja says
yar last reply ghalty say hogia woh main nay kahin or poct karna tha
Posted 26 Oct 2005

ok Sall what's your observation, I made my comments
Posted 28 Oct 2005

nikama says
Posted 28 Oct 2005

Ashii says
AIKALONE
Thanks a lot for this info,,, hmmm it means i never met anyyy MOLVI in my whole life


Z
errrr,,, u r rite freddy is fradiya,, but fradiya sounds like nikama that s y i mixed them up

agree to ur definition of JAHALT,,,   par jahalat ko khatam kaise karte hein,,,,,,
there is infact a difference btw being intelligent and being wise
at least our college/univ cant teach us how to be wise,,, Quran pak humein seedha rasta dikhata hai insaan banna sikhata hai,, Quran parhne ka time to shayd logon k paas ho par samajhne ka time koi kahan se nikale,,,,,,    we have MUCH MORE IMPORTANT things to do,,, like our “education” / shadi / earn a lot of money
SD is abs rite “religion is the last thing on our days agenda and so is anything related to it”
our life has 2 aims,, money and comfort

and now modernism,,,,,,,,,, ufffffffffff
asal mei baat yeh hai k,,, ummmmm.. lemme concentrate
hamare liye modern hone ka matlab AZAD hona hai,, aur azadi sirf utni achi hai jitni MUJHE suite kare

hehehehheee,,,
hum log khud jitne bhi galt kaam karein but we need few ppl jo k hamare gunahon k maaf ho jane ka certificate ban k hamare samne rahein,,, aur iss k liye aik “noorani ba-resh molana” ka hona zaroori hai yess,,, that s the thing
jo log hamari maafi k liye dua karte rahein,,
jo log na agay dekhein na peeche,,, bass harr wakt dua namaz mei time guzarein,, aur hamari fatiha k chawal kha k hamari maghfirat ki dua karein
wahhh wahhhhhh,,,   
asal mei we need molvis jo humein hamari marzi ka Quran parh k suna sakein,,,,,,


SD gave the exact reason y we cant accept modern molvis

Humein to itna samajh aati hai k molviyon ki galti nahi hai
Galti hamari hai,,,,,,,,,,,    
I once heard in a wa’az (someone i respect a lot,, aur jinn ki kissi baat pe aaj tak objection nahi kar pai me)
“agar aap log samajhte hein k hamare molvi/aalim-e-deen galt hein to phir logon mei awareness phelana aap ka FARZ ban jata hai,, bilkul jaise namaz-e-janaza aik shaks bhi parha de to sahi hai,, aur agar koi nahi parha sakta to tamam muslims gunehgar hue”



WE ARE RESPONSIBLE,,,,,,, coz molvis bhi to hum mei se hi hein na
Posted 28 Oct 2005

aikalone says
SALL!
If you never meet any molvi or Aalim-e-deen in ur life then I am sorry to say but you are very Unfortunate. Aap ne likha ka Quaran Paak hamain seedha rasta dikhata hay likin pehlay aap mujh ko ye batain kay kiya aap peoples kay pass itnee samjh boojh hay kay wo Quran Paak ko samajh sakain. I mean kay Arabic se English, Urdu ya kisi bhee language main Quran Paak ke word to word translation to shayad bohat se Ph.D., Masters ya phir Bohat Achee ARabic janne wala bhe kar sakta hay likin us ko samjhne keliye bhee kisi na kisi Teacher kee zaroorat hay. Jese aap Doctor, Engineer, ya kisi bhee field kay exper nahee ban sakte with learning from some same as you can understand the Quran with any teacher. Likin shart yahee hay kay jis se aap learning karain wo Kaamil Aalim-e-deen hona chahiye. OR jab koee shakhs 12 yrs tak sirif relegious education get kare (aab to taqreeban har Madrasah main English, computers, etc subjects bhee study karwaye ja rahe hain siwae unke jo madrasoon, jihad kay naam par chanda jamma karte hain or khud he khajate hain) wo yaqeena ham se lakh darje behtar hoga. agar aap ko kisi Aalim-e-Deen se milna hay to aap mujh ko bata dain main aap ko aese hazaroon logoon ke bare main bata sakta hoon kay jinhoon ne apnee pure zindagee religous eduction get karne main or teach karne main guzardee or jin ki pure zindagee Shariyat or Sunnat par amal karte hoyee guzar rahee hay.
Posted 28 Oct 2005

not all molvis are jahil
Posted 28 Oct 2005

... meaning some of them are

the question then is what's the breakdown or disparity between jahil & non-jahil molvis?

Who do we consider non-jahil molvis ?

are there not Jahils in other professions? ....

aikalone: yah've a point. Its not that molvis who do get formal education (a real molvi education) don't have the mastery of their subject. Its the quacks and under-qualified people who are very narrow but extreme in their views (I mean within the provisions of Islam).

Posted 28 Oct 2005

Rapunzel says
50 50
Posted 28 Oct 2005

Rapunzel says
shahrukh khan said:

if mullas are jahil,we all are responsible for that



right
Posted 28 Oct 2005

nikama says
but we cant afford to have jahils as our religious leaders.so un ki jahalat se chutkara kaisay pya jay
Posted 29 Oct 2005

Blue Oasis says

This topic would have been very surprizing to me a year before because then the concept of a jahil molvi never crossed my mind. All the molivis and Imams I have come across have always been educated, so I am fortunate. They would dress in shalwar kameez, speak fluent Arabic, English and Urdu, plus would usually be from a profession.

However, since some asian channels started running religious talk shows, I've seen some very strange molvis, they would come across as very ignorant and backward because - my own biased coming in - they wouldn't understand the language the question was in and hence wouldn't be able to give a proper answer. I mean they may well have been able to answer properly if the question was in Panjabi, but most of the questions were in Urdu.

It is sad and not right for the channel to bring such molvis in because it makes the molvi feel embarrassed and insecure of himself.

In my oppion being bi-lingual is very important for a religious leader, be it knowing Urdu and Panjabi (Arabic is a must) or Urdu/Panjabi and English. Just look at the Pope, no one calls him Jahil, he dressess tradtionally, has no other job apart from being the Pope at the Vatican - - - but he can speak every tongue and I think that gives him the cutting edge over our lesser educated molvis.
Posted 29 Oct 2005

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