what form of government is islamic?

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nikama

Age: 49
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some say that democracy is.others argue that only khilafat is the true islamic mod of governance.still some others think that presidential form is truely islamic.what exactly is the ideal form of gov.in islam?sometimes ago in a debate with some mullas of a religious party,i said that there is no restriction in islam abt the form as long as the ruler/s act on sharia as his/their supreme law.but they rejected my view point.what do u have to say abt it
Posted 29 Nov 2005

Bazigaar says
nikama said:

some say that democracy is.others argue that only khilafat is the true islamic mod of governance.still some others think that presidential form is truely islamic.what exactly is the ideal form of gov.in islam?sometimes ago in a debate with some mullas of a religious party,i said that there is no restriction in islam abt the form as long as the ruler/s act on sharia as his/their supreme law.but they rejected my view point.what do u have to say abt it



if mullas tell u k khalifa is the only true government body...then tell them k khalifa khuda banata hae...and now that khilafat muslims se chini ja chuki hae...hum kidher se apni taraf se koi khalifa bana den? so i think demoracy is the rite thing for the time being
Posted 29 Nov 2005

nikama says
hmmm,main bhi yehi samjhta hoon,ager hum khilafat ko maan bhi lain to khalifa ko choose kon kare ga,but they say that democracy is un-islamic coz in islam u cant present your self for a designation,or post.is it right?
Posted 29 Nov 2005

Bazigaar says
nikama said:

hmmm,main bhi yehi samjhta hoon,ager hum khilafat ko maan bhi lain to khalifa ko choose kon kare ga,but they say that democracy is un-islamic coz in islam u cant present your self for a designation,or post.is it right?



ok...even if i agree to them democaracy is un-islamic, then tell them to go find a khalifa for u and u'll follow em this way, u'll just throw the ball in their court and make them speechless...

remember...anything they say, just say..yup, i agree, now where can i find the khalifa?

**i know it;s not matter of joke, but esaay logoon se esee tarah nibatna parta hae - unfortunatly...
Posted 29 Nov 2005

nikama says
yea,unfortunately
Posted 29 Nov 2005

Ashii says
its not democracy for sure

but as its said,,,,
kaun bane ga.......... KHALIFA
Posted 30 Nov 2005

I'll comment on it a bit later. Topic is vast and there are varying opinions about it.
Posted 30 Nov 2005

nikama says
i talked abt it to few others friends.our collective opinion is that in islam only some standerds have been set that are to be abided by the ruler.as for the form of gov.arabs had this tribal system in vogue in which usually the chief belonged to a certain family.like if father died son would step in his shoes.but after the death of the holy prophetp.b.u.h.,muslims chose to have a kaliph who did not necessarily have to belong to ehle-e-bait,the family of holy prophet.the family of the prophet indeed had some reservations regarding this but this is another topic.anyway,the true khilfat ceased to exist after the martyrdom of hazrat ali,and was replaced by the dynasties of ummaya and abbasia.those rulers although still called caliphs were just kings who had sharia as the general law of the state but the implementation of sharia was at the will of the ruler some of them were very pious other really ba****ds,but they were all essentially dictators who only used the name of caliphat for their own interests.all around the world ppl were ruled by dictators.they did not have any say in gov.affairs till the society evolved and finally democracy began to replace the old forms of gov.it can be truelly islamic if the sharia is the supreme law of the state and if the rulers fulfill the conditions laid down by the religion regarding the charecter and conducts of the rulers.otherwise democracy is just another kind of dictator ship.your comments?
Posted 03 Dec 2005

muslim says
well i have a similar kind of opinion

u see in our Prophet [pbuh] there were horses to b ridden not cars

now v cant say v shd all have horses or cammels . i mean there is an evolutionary process of mind our religion guides us and showswhat v shd do in diff situations

     same is the case wid democracy and khilafat khilafat was the best when there was nt a reliable election possible bt now it is .

i am nt saying dat democracy is the ideal bt now a days it is far better than autocratic khilafat

the main disadv of democracy in 2day,s scenerio is dat v have lost our focal pt after it i mean lots of diffs in the form of firqas and anoder thing which has weakened iislamic world through democracy is this" national interest " now every country thinksof its own .no 1 seems to care of islamic wrld   


Posted 09 Dec 2005

nikama says
yes,democracy is best for the time,and who knows after some time society may evolve an even better system
Posted 10 Dec 2005

muslim says
well whatever dat will b dat will b nearer toi democracy than the khilafat
Posted 11 Dec 2005

Badal says
nikama said:

some say that democracy is.others argue that only khilafat is the true islamic mod of governance.still some others think that presidential form is truely islamic.what exactly is the ideal form of gov.in islam?sometimes ago in a debate with some mullas of a religious party,i said that there is no restriction in islam abt the form as long as the ruler/s act on sharia as his/their supreme law.but they rejected my view point.what do u have to say abt it



Democracy it (in its current form) has nothing to do with Islam. Once someone asked Allama Iqbal about democracy, he quoted someone in his 'sher',
"Jamhooriat ik tarz e hukomat hai kay jis main,
bandoon ko gina kartay hain tola nahi kartay."

And someone else said, "jamhooriat main ghoray (horces) aur gadhay (donkeys) dono barabar hotay hain".

jabkay Islam main aisa nahi hai, and its unnatural too. 100 nabeena aik beena shaks kay barabar nahi ho saktay, isi tarah aik Aalim ka opinion 100 united jahiloon kay opinion say behtar hai. If you get injured to tankay lagwanay kay liye surgeon/doctor kay pass jain gay ya kisi mochi kay pass? Its very simple, i dont know logoon ko samajh kyun nahi ata.

Ideal form of Islamic govt tu Khilafat hi hai (who says its not ideal? anyone?) there is no contradictory opinion from any AUTHENTIC source. question tu sirf itna tha kay ab jabkay khilafat nahi hai tu kia koi Islamic govt hi nahi hai? No, sirf khilafat hi islamic govt nahi hai (though it is 'ideal form') any govt which is truly based on Islam (its constitution is Quran, Sunnah and Shariah) is also Islamic govt. laikin naam kay sath Islami jamhoria likh denay say koi govt Islamic govt nahi banti.

Islamic democracy (election of Khalifa) ye hai kay Shura decide karti hai kay kon banay ga kalifa, aur sirf learned and kabil log hi hotay hain shura main (now dont ask me kay learned aur kabil log kon hotay hain). But there are much flexibility in Islam regarding this (but not that kay common ppl bhi hukmaran elect kar saktay hain), and much to say about it.
Posted 12 Dec 2005

Badal says
Shahenshah said:

if mullas tell u k khalifa is the only true government body...then tell them k khalifa khuda banata hae...and now that khilafat muslims se chini ja chuki hae...hum kidher se apni taraf se koi khalifa bana den? so i think demoracy is the rite thing for the time being



Now bazi here you go, but in reverse. Who said to you kay khalifa khuda banata hai? Hazrat Abu bakr, Umar, Usman, Ali ko kia khuda nay khalifa banaya tha? Nah, shura nay banaya tha, aur shura main insaan hi thay. So better to be silent without knowldge.



nikama said:

hmmm,main bhi yehi samjhta hoon,ager hum khilafat ko maan bhi lain to khalifa ko choose kon kare ga,but they say that democracy is un-islamic coz in islam u cant present your self for a designation,or post.is it right?



Shahenshah said:

ok...even if i agree to them democaracy is un-islamic, then tell them to go find a khalifa for u and u'll follow em this way, u'll just throw the ball in their court and make them speechless...

remember...anything they say, just say..yup, i agree, now where can i find the khalifa?

**i know it;s not matter of joke, but esaay logoon se esee tarah nibatna parta hae - unfortunatly...



nikama said:

yea,unfortunately



Bazi, you will be doing a mistake if you throw THIS ball in their court if you dont want Khilafat they will certainly choose a Khalifa jo at least Bush & Mush say behtar hoga aur phir aap afsos kartay reh jain gay.

nikama, i want expecting this from you. you mean gadhoon ko insaan banaynay kay liye khud gadhay ban jao? unfortunately? And what about Islam's teachings of preaching with Hikmat and patience, knowledge and argument?

Yes it is true, the person who asks for a designation for himself isnt islamically eillegible fot it, unless there isnt a better person than him and he merely intends to serve the nation better (dont tell me that only Allah knows our intentions). There were several example of this in the time of our Prophet when he rejetected many persons wishing authorty for themselves.
Posted 12 Dec 2005

Badal says
nikama said:

i talked abt it to few others friends.our collective opinion is that in islam only some standerds have been set that are to be abided by the ruler.as for the form of gov.arabs had this tribal system in vogue in which usually the chief belonged to a certain family.like if father died son would step in his shoes.but after the death of the holy prophetp.b.u.h.,muslims chose to have a kaliph who did not necessarily have to belong to ehle-e-bait,the family of holy prophet.the family of the prophet indeed had some reservations regarding this but this is another topic.anyway,the true khilfat ceased to exist after the martyrdom of hazrat ali,and was replaced by the dynasties of ummaya and abbasia.those rulers although still called caliphs were just kings who had sharia as the general law of the state but the implementation of sharia was at the will of the ruler some of them were very pious other really ba****ds,but they were all essentially dictators who only used the name of caliphat for their own interests.all around the world ppl were ruled by dictators.they did not have any say in gov.affairs till the society evolved and finally democracy began to replace the old forms of gov.it can be truelly islamic if the sharia is the supreme law of the state and if the rulers fulfill the conditions laid down by the religion regarding the charecter and conducts of the rulers.otherwise democracy is just another kind of dictator ship.your comments?


i disagree with most of it, khilafat from the first khalifa to the last one was far better than the democracy being observed today. Kingship, dictatorship? These are the words and beliefs of SIR Abul A'la Modudi, isnt it? This is the result of ignoring the princilples of judgement laid down by our relegion.

muslim said:

now v cant say v shd all have horses or cammels . i mean there is an evolutionary process of mind our religion guides us and showswhat v shd do in diff situations

     same is the case wid democracy and khilafat khilafat was the best when there was nt a reliable election possible bt now it is .


Aww.. muslim, there is a lot of difference between a Mubah thing (riding cars, horces or even donkeys) and a Sharai issue which affect the whole nation, isnt it? Also, there is no such thing as EVOLUTION in already prescribed Islamic deeds and norms.

Someone says, pehlay Kaba chota tha ab bara ho gaya hai, ab sab ko wahaan ja kar namaz parhni chahiye. evolution?

din chotay ho gaye hain, time tezi say guzar raha hai, ab 5 ki jaga 2 namazain honi chahiyen ya 30 ki bajaye 15 rozay honay chahiyen.

brain reading machines aa gaeen hain, ab murder case ka faisla 2 gawahoon ki bajaye brain read kar kay karna chahiye. what do you think?

"there was nt a reliable election possible"? who says? at that time each person by his own hand used to make his agreement, and rulers used to be choosen by learned people not by juhalas, how can it be more reliable to fill up the ballet boxes (are you sure your vote in the box is indeed yours? i m not) by common people who dont even know the person whom they are giving their vote? Amazing!
Posted 12 Dec 2005

nikama says
badal said:
Ideal form of Islamic govt tu Khilafat hi hai (who says its not ideal? anyone?) there is no contradictory opinion from any AUTHENTIC source. question tu sirf itna tha kay ab jabkay khilafat nahi hai tu kia koi Islamic govt hi nahi hai? No, sirf khilafat hi islamic govt nahi hai (though it is 'ideal form') any govt which is truly based on Islam (its constitution is Quran, Sunnah and Shariah) is also Islamic govt. laikin naam kay sath Islami jamhoria likh denay say koi govt Islamic govt nahi banti.

Islamic democracy (election of Khalifa) ye hai kay Shura decide karti hai kay kon banay ga kalifa, aur sirf learned and kabil log hi hotay hain shura main (now dont ask me kay learned aur kabil log kon hotay hain). But there are much flexibility in Islam regarding this (but not that kay common ppl bhi hukmaran elect kar saktay hain), and much to say about it. bhai hum sab bhi shaid yehi keh rahe the,but the big question is who are the learned and noble men who will decide abt the khalifa?what is the criteria for becoming a member of shura?
Posted 12 Dec 2005

nikama says
and btw modoodi ka naam to bohat suna he lekin us ki koi kitab aj tak parhne ka moqa mila
Posted 13 Dec 2005

muslim says
badal frnd u raised a very gud issue dat khaleefas were choosen by shura


NOW my question to u is abt the banu abbasi,s khaleefas who ruled islam 4 many years
Mr. mamoon rasheed killed mr ameen [both sons of ur haroon rasheed] to become the KHALEEFA
so where was ur shura then

haroon [ its written in ibn e khuldoon and also in tibri] dat haroon rasheed who became khaleefa after his dad was the son of anoder khaleefa and he was a son of anoder khaleef i wanna ask dat were dese khaleefa[4 me kings] elected by shura and y all the ULAMA,S SHURA
elected the son of a klhaleefa . i mean could y did they only elect a son of a khaleefa

who can hide this fact dat hajaj bin yousuf used to drink and he killed more than 50000 muslims jst coz dey opposed him

he is considered to b the worst king in tareekh who was a sadist and used to take on a locket of human skulls

mr badal wht ur shura found in dese drunken ppl to elect dese kings
Posted 13 Dec 2005

muslim says
i would request u to read ibne khuldoon and tabri oder stuuf to get fimiliar wid isalmic ruling history
Posted 13 Dec 2005

nikama says
yea muslim,i have read TAARIKH-UL-KHULAFA,by some one whose name i have forgotten.some of the so called caliphs were so mean that musharaf turns out to be quite an angel if compared to them
Posted 13 Dec 2005

muslim says
so where r clouds of no water
Posted 13 Dec 2005

nikama says
but ye bhikaha jata he k jaisi awam,vaise hi hakim to kahin aisa to nahin k hum log kabhi ache muslim rahe hi nahinshaid isi liay yazeed se leker musharaf tak sab...
Posted 13 Dec 2005

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