AUR JAN’AY KI KHUAHISH

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nikama

Age: 50
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Location:
rawalpindi, Pakistan
kya islam main humain is ka haq hasil he.
i mean ager koi tauheed aur risaalat ko manta he.
immaan-e-muffasil main jin baton ka ziker he un per bhi immaan rakhta he.
faraiz per aur haraam,halaal k concept per bhi yaqeen rakhta he.
but still on some issues he does not find himself able to agree with the religious teachings,or popular religious thought.
to kya vo phir bhi musalman rehta he.
kya islam humain ikhtilf-e-rai ka haq deta he
aleready sick of the sermons,so please post only if u have something to say
Posted 16 Oct 2006

Ashii says
hmmmmmmm nice topic

zehn mei aik baat i hai par abhi dimag soya hua hai,, wont b able to explain it clearly
baad mei
Posted 16 Oct 2006

new_beau says
I think ...We should change the words...ikhtiaf-e-raye ki bijaye...issay aur jaan'nay ki khuwahish kaha jaye tu zyaada behtar rahay ga...


SD bhai,pls come and say something
Posted 16 Oct 2006

nikama says
well,n.b,if u think ikhtilaf-e-rai is not the right word then obviously ap is concept ko bhi ghalat samajhte hain
Posted 17 Oct 2006

new_beau says
I am sorry if you felt that....
Posted 18 Oct 2006

nikama says
sorry keh ker sherminda na karain


matlab ye k do hi rai ho sakti hain na for or against
Posted 18 Oct 2006

Ashii says
han to hum ne socha tha kkk
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm..

haan yaad aa gaya

Islam mei Iman sab se important cheez hai,, zuban se aur amal se apne iman ka izhar karna
iman hai Khuda ki zaat pe,, uss k Rasool, paighabar aur kitabon pe
not neccesarily on ""religious teachings, or popular religious thought""

NOW,,
agar ikhtelaf Khuda k farman se hoga, ya kissi rasool ya paighambar k,, ya phir kitab se
yeh to phir garbar hai yar

i think alag alag firke aur maktab e fikr aise hi wujood mei aate hein


naya bhai jii ne shayad sahi kaha "aur jaane ki khahish"
there r few things in Islam jinn se me kuch sahi se ittefaq nahi karti,,, but I beleive aisa iss liye hai kyun k me sahi se janti nahi yar koi mujh sahi se bata nahi paata
may b i ask questions jo koi aur nahi puchta,, or I think on angles jinhein sab ignore ya avoid karte hon

koi janta ya samajhta nahi ya matlab yeh nahi k jawab hai hi nahi,,
I believe sab baton ka jawab hai,, aur hai bhi aisa jiss se hum sa ittefaq karein,,, but we need to wait or search more


mujhe abhi aur samjhana nahi aa raha,, ramadan k end mei kuch aisa hi hota hai
agar topic se hutt k kuch keh diya ho to maaf kijiye ga
Posted 18 Oct 2006

javad says
nicee

Posted 18 Oct 2006

new_beau says
waisay ..can I ask keh Ikhtilaaf hay kya ?
Posted 18 Oct 2006

nikama says
new_beau said:

waisay ..can I ask keh Ikhtilaaf hay kya ?


asal main n.b main ne topic banate waqt socha bhi tha k ikhtilaf jin baton per he un ko bhi mention ker dia jay,lekin phir is liay nahin kia k aik pindora box khul jana tha,aur asal topic ko chor ker log fatwa bazi per uter atay.
aisa aik dafa pehle ho chuka he,yahan j.b per hi shaid main ne women rights k mutaliq kuch kaha that was against the popular thought us k baad references bhi diay.quran,ahadees,fiqah k havale bhi diay,lekin jawab main sirf khamoshi
abhi main sirf janna chahta hun k ikhtilaf ki gunjaish he bhi ya nahin.
Posted 19 Oct 2006

nikama says
Ashii said:

Islam mei Iman sab se important cheez hai,, zuban se aur amal se apne iman ka izhar karna
iman hai Khuda ki zaat pe,, uss k Rasool, paighabar aur kitabon pe
not neccesarily on ""religious teachings, or popular religious thought""

NOW,,
agar ikhtelaf Khuda k farman se hoga, ya kissi rasool ya paighambar k,, ya phir kitab se
yeh to phir garbar hai yar

well,ashii,thx k roza rakh ker itni zehmat bhi ker di ap ne
popular religious thought bhi khuda,rasool k ferman,aur kitabullah k ehkamat ki roshni main hi vajood main aati he.firqa varana ikhtilaf interpretations per he,na k asal kahi gai bat per,jabke main jis ikhtilaf ki bat ker raha hun vo kitab,aur rasool ki teachings se ikhtilaf he.
does that amount to kufar
ye sawal poochne ka bhi aik maqsad he aur ye question is waqt atleast 4 forums per chal raha he,but WE r still waiting for the first reasonable reply.

Posted 19 Oct 2006

Ashii says
mera nahi khyal k kissi ko kafir keh dena koi choti baat hai,, so agar aap ko koi aisa answer mile bhi to na sunna,, unless kissi alim e deen ka answer ho

"deen mei jabr nahi"
does it mean aap deen k muamle mei kissi ki soch ko paband nahi kar sakte ??


nikama
baat zemat ki nahi hai,, mera dimag thikane nahi hai
btw hum ko aap ka yeh topic bilkul pasand nahi aaya
im confuse
Posted 19 Oct 2006

Doctor Sam says
i have read the topic and tried to GET it.
what came in my mind is..

the word "ikhtilaf-e-raye" is somewhat controversial. i mean what kind of IKHTILAF are u going to make..?

As u said Ishfaq bhai

kya islam main humain is ka haq hasil he.
i mean ager koi tauheed aur risaalat ko manta he.
immaan-e-muffasil main jin baton ka ziker he un per bhi immaan rakhta he.
faraiz per aur haraam,halaal k concept per bhi yaqeen rakhta he.

these are the main and basic things. By writing this, u mean u have Ikhtilaf-e-raye on points OTHER than these points...

but still on some issues he does not find himself able to agree with the religious teachings,or popular religious thought.
to kya vo phir bhi musalman rehta he.

Depends on Nature of ISSUES.If ikhtilaf-e-Raye is in the manner that U are not satisfied with some particular point or issue or u disagree.. u must consult some AALIM..
For many things, we dont know the logic but we have to obey the order , just remembering that it is From Allah.
But i think for many issues, there are logics. and these logics can satisfy u.

kya islam humain ikhtilf-e-rai ka haq deta he
In sari baaton k baad, i think To some extent hum ikhtilaf-e-raye kar saktay hain Provided Iman ko koi khatra na ho. and i m sure our internal alarm system warns us when there is a danger.
Posted 20 Oct 2006

Doctor Sam says
i dont know to what extent i have made myself career.
but i think many times, before answering to such topics and issues.
if my answer is not according to ur question, then i will insist u to make me understand ur q. coz its important.
and i would like to know the ISSUES u r talking about to make myself clear.
Posted 20 Oct 2006

Doctor Sam says
nikama said:



popular religious thought bhi khuda,rasool k ferman,aur kitabullah k ehkamat ki roshni main hi vajood main aati he.firqa varana ikhtilaf interpretations per he,na k asal kahi gai bat per,jabke main jis ikhtilaf ki bat ker raha hun vo kitab,aur rasool ki teachings se ikhtilaf he.



I think Ikhtilaf is not the right word when u talk about KITAB and RASOOL. There is nothin to make IKHTILAF regarding these if we have IMAN.
BUT
as i said before, u may b unsatisfied with some issue ,i m sure the reason will be IGNORANCE , u may not have knowledge about that and this can b made clear by talking to some scholar.(aor waqai hum main se bohat say logon ko bohat c baaton ko nahi pata)

nikama said:


does that amount to kufar
ye sawal poochne ka bhi aik maqsad he aur ye question is waqt atleast 4 forums per chal raha he,but WE r still waiting for the first reasonable reply.



well i think. if u talk about KITAB and Rasool , there Must be no ikhtilaf. but if u have some qs , u can ask to make urself clear.
i think u r getting me. Intention matters.
"Ikhtilaf baraye Ikhtilaf" leads to kufar.
(this all is what i think)
Posted 20 Oct 2006

nikama says
doc.sam thank u very much for such a long,detailed and very well written reply.honestly i was least expecting it from u
ikhtilaf obviously as i said earlier,poori kitab ya rasool ki sari taalimat se to nahin he.na hi ehkamat per he.bas kuch issues hain jin per hum kuch differently sochte hain.
and as u put it very beautifully,our internal alrm system tells us if we have crossed the limits,aur ALLAH ka shukar he k hum logon ko abhi apne musalman hone per koi shuba nahin.
is topic ko stsrt kerne ka maqsad ye tha k aik alim sahib ne farmaya,hum logon ki sari batain sun'ay k baad

k ap ka imaan sakht khatre main he.
toba karo
english literature perhna chor do
apne firqa k ilava doosron ki books na parho
ager ap kisi bhi muamle main ikhtilafi view rakhte hain to ap kharij az islam hain
hum logon ne kaha
abay o,##!%$#&* MULLA
ap ne hamari baton ka to jawab dia nahin aur kufar ka fatwa laga dia.
farmaya,ye sab shaitani waswase hain
jin baton per ikhtilaf he,un per sirf hamain hi nahin aur bohat son ko bhi ikhtilaf he.but i wont go into details here...
aik bat aur,kafi aalimon se aur kafi ache aalimon se rujoo kerne k baad hi ap logon ko zehmat di he.
sab k views ya to us mulla jaise thay ya phir apas main bhi nahin milte.
i am beginning to see the issue more clearly now but still need some more guidance and info.
s.d,badal bhai kahan ho


Posted 20 Oct 2006

Doctor Sam says
nikama said:

doc.sam thank u very much for such a long,detailed and very well written reply.honestly i was least expecting it from u



aap ka topic bohat acha hey. aor dossri baat ye k baqi topics bhi hum parhtay hain. jO INFORMATIVE hotay hain, wahan koi posting nahi kartay k unko parh lena hi asal maqsad hey.aor Aksar apni kam-ilmi k khof se posting nahi kartay..

nikama said:


is topic ko stsrt kerne ka maqsad ye tha k aik alim sahib ne farmaya,hum logon ki sari batain sun'ay k baad

k ap ka imaan sakht khatre main he.
toba karo
english literature perhna chor do
apne firqa k ilava doosron ki books na parho
ager ap kisi bhi muamle main ikhtilafi view rakhte hain to ap kharij az islam hain
hum logon ne kaha
abay o,##!%$#&* MULLA
ap ne hamari baton ka to jawab dia nahin aur kufar ka fatwa laga dia.
farmaya,ye sab shaitani waswase hain
jin baton per ikhtilaf he,un per sirf hamain hi nahin aur bohat son ko bhi ikhtilaf he.but i wont go into details here...
aik bat aur,kafi aalimon se aur kafi ache aalimon se rujoo kerne k baad hi ap logon ko zehmat di he.
sab k views ya to us mulla jaise thay ya phir apas main bhi nahin milte.



i m v sorry to know about it. this is LAMHA-E-FIKRIYA when we cant get the proper guidance from those who are responsible for this.
well i agree to the point to some extent
ye sab shaitani waswase hain
As in Quran-e-Pak , shaitani waswason se Allah ki panah mangni chahiye coz these ONLY distract our mind and nothing else.
However, Ulma-e-karam are responsible to satisfy and answer the qs of ordinary people.If they are unable to do so, its a tregedy.

English Literaturei dont know what type of english literature is being mentioned.

and the last thing,what these Molana did, they are responsible, But u should not use bad words for them





Posted 20 Oct 2006

nikama says
Doctor Sam said:



i m v sorry to know about it. this is LAMHA-E-FIKRIYA when we cant get the proper guidance from those who are responsible for this.
well i agree to the point to some extent
ye sab shaitani waswase hain
As in Quran-e-Pak , shaitani waswason se Allah ki panah mangni chahiye coz these ONLY distract our mind and nothing else.
However, Ulma-e-karam are responsible to satisfy and answer the qs of ordinary people.If they are unable to do so, its a tregedy.

English Literaturei dont know what type of english literature is being mentioned.

and the last thing,what these Molana did, they are responsible, But u should not use bad words for them






we had given some references from some books written by nonmuslims.that was the english lterature,maulana was talking about.
shetani waswase bhi hote hain no doubt,lekin jab ap daleel k sath baat kerte hain to ap ko us ka jawab bhi daleel k sath hi milna chahiay.
problems hamare mulla log k sath yeh he k ye apne apne firqe ki books k ilava aur kuch perhne ki zehmat hi nahin kerte.jab inhain pata hi nahin k hamare deen per eitrazat kya kiay ja rahe hain to ye un ka jawab bhala kya dain gay.
hum ne jin books k ya web sites k havale diay thay unmain bhi references quran aur hadees k hi thay aur main ne un ko verify bhi ker lia tha original books main se.
any way good news is that we are getting very good feedback on the issue from our friends on the net,us k ilava aik bohat achay mufti sahib se kal doston ki mulaqat hui main to nahin ja saka,lekin unhon ne ALLAH ka shukar he k kafi had tak bohat maqool batain kahin.
main ab in sab views ko jo hamain mile compile ker raha hun,aur aik jo majmooi soch us main se nikle gi us se ap logon ko bhi agah ker doon ga.
i thank all of u who posted here,ashii,n.b and doc.
s.d aur badal ki ghair mojoodgi main yahi kuch expect kia ja sakta he yahan
Posted 21 Oct 2006

Doctor Sam says
nikama said:



we had given some references from some books written by nonmuslims.that was the english lterature,maulana was talking about.
shetani waswase bhi hote hain no doubt,lekin jab ap daleel k sath baat kerte hain to ap ko us ka jawab bhi daleel k sath hi milna chahiay.
problems hamare mulla log k sath yeh he k ye apne apne firqe ki books k ilava aur kuch perhne ki zehmat hi nahin kerte.jab inhain pata hi nahin k hamare deen per eitrazat kya kiay ja rahe hain to ye un ka jawab bhala kya dain gay.



yes this is fact. Their knowledge is limited to their own Firqa. And the bad thing is when u talk about some other firqa infront of them, they will insist "k wo to theek musamlan e nahi hain".
Thts Y ye problem hamain face karna parta hey when we seek for right knowledge

nikama said:


hum ne jin books k ya web sites k havale diay thay unmain bhi references quran aur hadees k hi thay aur main ne un ko verify bhi ker lia tha original books main se.
any way good news is that we are getting very good feedback on the issue from our friends on the net,us k ilava aik bohat achay mufti sahib se kal doston ki mulaqat hui main to nahin ja saka,lekin unhon ne ALLAH ka shukar he k kafi had tak bohat maqool batain kahin.
main ab in sab views ko jo hamain mile compile ker raha hun,aur aik jo majmooi soch us main se nikle gi us se ap logon ko bhi agah ker doon ga.



i would definitly like to know about all that. I want to know about the issues u talked and then the info u r getting.

nikama said:


i thank all of u who posted here,ashii,n.b and doc.
s.d aur badal ki ghair mojoodgi main yahi kuch expect kia ja sakta he yahan



well ishfaq bhai. no need to say Thanks.
But see,
its a critical issue. I dont know what u were expecting and whether u got ur required answers or not. BUT i tried to understand what u wrote. As u mentioned generally,u didnt open the main issues, so we replied in a general way.
ALLAH TA'ALA hum sab ko islam ko samajhnay aor is par amal karne ki tofeeq ata farmaye. Aameen
Posted 21 Oct 2006

Doctor Sam says
there is something in my mind i want to share.

Dont always go for Logic.
Orders are sometimes beyond Logics. U have to obey them as they are.
Posted 21 Oct 2006

sorry, i was out in the last days of Ramadhan and eid.

There are matters that are non-negotiable in Islam , that are the foundation of it. Now, matters in which there are flexibilities, the doors of ijtehad are wide open. Difference in opinion on the interpretation of Quranic verses and prophetic traditions are possible to some extent while differing from the prophet in matters are also possible (but in very very limited terms). Where prophet has ruled on a matter, that can not be challenged.

These are my two cents. I seek forgiveness from Allah for any mistakes I made.
Posted 24 Oct 2006

new_beau says
MashaAllah...Good Discussion is on..

SD.. I think you should tell us something more in detail
Posted 25 Oct 2006

nb, I am not a scholar and I wouldn't like to step in unchartered territories. I can give examples on some of the issues but please identify those issues for me first. It will be a long discussion if we address each one of them.
Posted 25 Oct 2006

nikama says
S.D.thanks so much
as u said it will be a long discussion if we start addressing all the topics one by one,so i wont mention what the differences are and try to share with u what we have learnt so far from this discussion.
N.B.
as u must have seen that i have changed the title of the thread,i think the term aur jan'ay ki khuahish is a very beautifull one and it describes everything that was in my mind when i made this topic.
ikhtilaf-e-rai is a bit harsh word but i did not initialy changed it since i wanted to get some HARSH replies in response.
DOC.SAM
mufti sahib se doston ki jo discussion hui aur jo feed back we got from our net frends,that is all very encouraging,a very good thing that i must mention here is that no one tried to give any fatwa aur any negtative remarks.evry one tried to help and understand the issue,and since we had deliberately not mentioned the matters in which we had differences of opinion we did not expect any solution....we were just looking for one answer....can we dare to disagree
and the answer is
NO,NEVER.
as the mufti sahib said.ikhtilaf-e-rai ka matlab to yeh he k ap k khayal main other person ne jo kuch kaha ya jo kuch kia vo ghalat he,behter tareeqa kuch aur tha,ya us ko aisa nahin kerna chahiay tha.
well,can we say this about the GOD ALMIGHTY or his HOLY PROPHIT S.A.W.S?even we,despite our all liberal thinking and open attitudes cant say that.
we had some doubts,some reservations and we wanted to know WHY,i mean what was the reason behind that all
and that according to mufti sahib is no sin at all,specially regarding the issues under concern since many ppl have already expressed their difference of opinion on these matters.
IF WE DONT QUESTION HOW CAN WE GAIN KNOWLEDGE
as s.d. has quite rightly said that there are matters that are non-negotiable in islam,u dont need to find logic or reason behind them,u just have to accept them and obey them,this is what doc.sam had also said in one of his replies,and this is what many others also said,so there is absolutely no room for question regarding these foundations of islam.
but besides that every matter is debateable and questionable so long as your INTENTION is to learn more about the religion and not to as they say keeray naklana.
for our deeds are judged by our INTENTIONS,and GOD knows i just want to seek knowledge.
THE MATTERS THAT ACTUALLY MADE ME TO RAISE THIS TOPIC ARE STILL OPEN,STILL UNDER DISCUSSION BUT THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM IS SOLVED.
NOW,THE DOUBT CREATED BY SOME HALF LITERATE MULLAHS IS CLEAR AND WE ARE ABLE TO WORK MORE OBJECTIVELY ON THE ISSUES.
AND THAT IS ALL BECAUSE OF YOUR HELP AND GUIDANCE.
THANK YOU SO MUCH ALL OF YOU

Posted 27 Oct 2006

Badal says
Dont have much time, and the answer to this question can be very lengthy. Just adding to SD's first post.

As i could understand, by "aur jan'nay ki khahish" you mean "eagerness to find logics for various concepts". Kuch concept ki logic nahi milti tu we differ on that kyunkay "dil nahi manta". Login agar Quran, Hadith ya Fiqh main nahi batai gae aur wo concept Imaan ka hissa hai ya Ahadith say sabit hai tu we can still try tu find logic but cant differ. The reason is that human brain iss qabil nahin kay har baat ki logic dhoond sakay, har achi ya buri baat ko pehchan sakay. Agar aisa hota tu Allah ko apna Deen nazil karnay ki zaroorat hi na hoti. Ye Allah ka buhat bara Ihsaan hai hum par kay Us nay apnay Deen say humari madad ki. Jo Deen ko chor kar khud say Haq jannay ki koshish karay usay bewakoof kaha jana chahiye, he can never succeed.

Baqi jaisa SD nay kaha and others explained too.
Posted 03 Nov 2006

The reason I said there could be some matters where one could have differed from the prophet are where either prophet SAW didn't give clear instructions or where he was only expressing his personal opinion. This is proven in the books of seerah. But these are very isolated incidents and must be refered to in a very very careful way. These by no means are an open door invitation to argue with everything parophet saw said. Remember the verse in Surat Al Hashr that reminds the believers to "embrace whatever prophet gives you and leave what he commands to leave". This is a very delicate matter. I will strongly recommend to refer to a genuine scholar for clear answers.

1. When the POWs of Badr war were taken, Prophet SAW opined to take ransom and let the prisoners go. On the contrary, Omar RA strongly opined to kill the POWs. Later, Allah SWT revealed verses proving the opinion of the prophet was inaccurate and that of Omar was approved.

2. When prophet saw ordered his wariors to not pray Asr prayers until they reached Banu Quraidah. While his companions were rushing to Banu Quraidah, the time of Asr was about to be lost. Companions got into an argument whether to pray Asr or not. Some prayed arguing, we cannot disobey Allah - may be he did not realize that we may not be able to make it to our destination before maghrib. While the other group did not pray until they reached their destination. When the incident was related to the prophet, he approved of both actions.

3. When prophet SAW agreed with Jewish tribes on certain conditions of peace and upon return from there presented to the Ansar, their leaders did not approve of those. Prophet saw tore up the agreement and honored the opinion of Ansari leaders.

O' Allah forgive me of my errors and do not make me the source of wrong information. I sincerely seek forgiveness from you, O' Allah, for minutest of errors and mistakes.
Posted 07 Nov 2006

nikama says
badal and s.d
thank u so much once again
i agree with badal on all that he said.hamari aqal is qabil nahin k hum her baat ki haqiqat jaan sakain kuch baton ko bagher daleel k maan lena hi behter hota he.
Posted 17 Nov 2006

valandrian says
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