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ONLY GOD KNOWS WHO IS RIGHT

Holy Prophet(p.b.u.h.)once said that if a musim calls another a kaafir,one of them is surely a kafir...meaning that if the accused is not ,the accusor is.Imam Abu Hanifa has said that if u find 99 qualities of kufr in someone and only one of Imman,ignore the 99 and believe the one.a reknowned socialist writer/columnist Raja Anwar once carried out a research on the various FATWAS levelled against each other by the ullemas of diff.sects.he concluded that all these FATWAS carry some weight,so if we take all these FATWAS to be true,then there is perhaps not a single muslim today on the face of the earth.ALLAH muaaf karay....behter yahi hota hay ke apna aqeeda choro nahin...kisi ke aqeeday ko chero nahin for only Almighty knows who is right and who is wrong.
Posted on 9/13/2005 12:50:58 PM
you spoke the truth about labeling a muslim as kafir. I don't agree with the last statement but the ones before that are very important.

I have asked myself many thimes, why did the Prophet (saw) made such a strong statement on this matter?

What are your guesses? I'll share my understanding after you all pitch in. I' sure some of you will draw same conclusions.
Posted on 9/13/2005 9:17:57 PM
anybody!
Posted on 9/14/2005 8:42:54 PM
Thinking !!!
Posted on 9/15/2005 9:21:18 PM
sorry didnt get ur point
y dont u start first and we will reply to urs
Posted on 9/17/2005 12:23:01 AM
Assalam o Alaikum,

Starting from the title, "ONLY GOD KNOWS WHO IS RIGHT", i disagree. It should be "Allah knows the BEST who is right". And we also believe that "ONLY Allah knows who he will send to the Heaven or the Hell". These two statements were misleadingly combined into "Only Allah knows who is right". Allah has given us His Book and knowledge to judge who is right and who is wrong. Didn't our Holy Prophet pointed out several times who is right or wrong? It will be clear shortly.

nikama:
Holy Prophet(p.b.u.h.)once said that if a musim calls another a kaafir,one of them is surely a kafir...meaning that if the accused is not ,the accusor is.

You didnt provided any reference or source. but you will see how it itself goes against you own words. Continue...

nikama:
Imam Abu Hanifa has said that if u find 99 qualities of kufr in someone and only one of Imman,ignore the 99 and believe the one.

Now imagine if some has a 990 (99 x 10) qualities of Imaan, but he labels some other Muslim as Kafir who is not indeed a kafir. Then according to the Hadith you mentioned above he himself will be a kafir. Now what about his 990 qualities of Imaan? Why cant you accept him as a Muslim now? Hadith compels you to reject the 990 qualities, isnt it? I didnt say Imaam abu hanifa is wrong, i will explain it latter.

nikama:
a reknowned socialist writer/columnist Raja Anwar once carried out a research on the various FATWAS levelled against each other by the ullemas of diff.sects.he concluded that all these FATWAS carry some weight,so if we take all these FATWAS to be true,then there is perhaps not a single muslim today on the face of the earth.ALLAH muaaf karay....

Now again take the above hadith. If you believe in it (and in its meanings which you are taking), then surely no one here is Muslim now. Think about it. (dont worry hadith will be explained latter)

nikama:
behter yahi hota hay ke apna aqeeda choro nahin...kisi ke aqeeday ko chero nahin for only Almighty knows who is right and who is wrong.

This shows extreme lack of your knowledge, brother. Allah Himself asked us to guide (and even force if necessary) people to the right. He didnt say "Only me know who is right and who is wrong, so dont talk about it nor touch anyone's beleifs". Is it "better" to deny Allah's orders? How will you justify the Qunaic verse:

"Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors." Al-Imran [3:110]

We do know by the will of Allah what is right and what is wrong thats why He has ORDERED us to enjoin what is right, forbid what is wrong. Do you think He ordererd us to do so, without giving us knowledge?

Come to the above Hadith now. You misinterpretted this Hadith and the statement of Imaam abhu hanifa too. The word Kuffr itself needs explanation. Kuffr means "Denial or Rejection" Someone may deny a fundamental belief of Islam or deny to perform certain act of Islam, here comes the difference. By an example, our Prophet said who intentionaly gives up the Prayer (Namaz) surely does a Kuffr (Kufr in literal meanings). But he is a Muslim, you can well understand it. However if someone denies the obligation of Namaz then he will surely a Kafir (Kufr in metaphorical meanings, a non muslim). The Hadith means that "If anyone says onother Muslim muslim a kafir, and if the other one is not indeed kafir, then he committed an act of Kuffr (not that he turned into a non Muslim)". Imaam abu Hanifa's statement mean the same, he said even you see 99 qualities of Kuffr (the Kuffr that does not take him out of the fold of Islam), look at his better qualities even a single one and consider him a Muslim.

Such teachings of Islam ensure that no one is falsely accused of being kafir. While at the same time Islam ensures we do not consider a person a muslim if his Kufr is evident. Cosidering a Kafir a Muslim will also result in kufr.

Here are some more examples:

1- Al-Kafirun:

"Qul ya ayyuha alkafiroon" (Say: O disbelievers!) [109:1]

Allah ordered us to say Kafir to who are indeed kafir.

2- At the time of our Prophet, the Muselma Kazzab just got out of the fold of Islam because of his clain of prophethood, and he was previously a Muslim indeed. Where his rest of islamic qualities gone after that? (They were ruined by his act of Kufr) And still upto today if even a big Muslim commits such a lie, we deem him as Murtid and wajib ul katl.

3- After the death of our Prophet when some people denied Zakaat, Hazrat Abu Bakar deemed them as Murtid and fought with them and killed them untill they accepted the truth again. Where were all of their Islamism gone after rejecting just one fundamental of Islam (Zakaat)?

4- At the time of Hazrat Ali when some people accused him of denying Quran (and infact they thereselves commited this sin by wrongly interpretting an Ayah and rejecting another one), Hazrat Ali fought with them and put all of them to death because ther were Murtid. Our Prophet himself said about them that soon there will a group of people before whom you will consider deeds very small, but they will be as out of Islam "jaisay kamaan say teer nikal jata hai". Now look how pious there were, but were out of Islam due to rejecting a single Ayah despite of accepting rest of the relegion in full.

None of them said "we dont know who is right" neither said "do not touch anyone's belief" and nor said "leave them at their own", instead they tried to erradicate the evil as soon as possible. There are hundreds of examples, but this should be enough for the wise.

The bottomline is that we are not allowed to leave people at their own to harm our relegion and spread the evil, and nor should we do. Muslim Scholars in the past spent their whole lives in protecting this relegion from the pollution of evil beleifs.

The real problem today (which i have observed) is that some scholars make a hurry to labeling someone as kafir, without proper investigation. And it becomes more miserable when they accuse whole the group/sect of kufr if they found something suspicious about anyone of their renowned leaders/scholars. For example taking a sentence from Ashraf Ali Thanwi's book (and taking it out of context or taking their own meanings sometimes) and labeling the whole of his sect as kafir. Or taking a act of Imaam Raza and without thinking of justifying it, label their whole sect as kafir. And also even their followers do not believe in what was suspicious about them they are considered as kafir by others. It is really miserable.
Posted on 9/28/2005 10:49:38 AM
Badal, your explanation is very well indeed. Jazak-Allah o khairan.
There are other ahadeeth on this subject, example from Bukhari, "don't label a believer as disbeliever even if you see kufur in his acts unless one manifests his aqeedah otherwise." (rough translation of the reference to prophet's saying).

I agree with the notions of kufr of Aqeedah (belief) and of Amal (deed). Hadeeth nikama related and saying of Abu-Hanifa are examples in reference. Just like Badal presented, hadeeth refers to the kufr of action and not of aqeedah. What imam Abu-Hanifah is relating to is a rule of thumb. It is not an absolute ruling, it is rather a guiding principle.

Reason, why the prophet emphasized so much on this issue, was to keep Muslims from dividing themselves. This denies anyone to issue certificate of belief to anyone and restricts people from debarring others from the fold of Islam. Allah SWT Himself set the criteria for it in the Quran and Prophet SAW explained it in the hadith. So kufr of Aqeedah which expels one from Iman can only be judged on those articles of faith.

Matter of amr bil maroof wa nahiya anil munkar are a separate topic for discussion though. I disagree with you badal on the issue of forcefulness of correcting people's aqeedah. Allah SWT gave an open choice to people to either believe or disbelieve. Allah SWT mentioned of Prophet as one who gives glad tiding and warner of painful torment and is an agent who invites to Allah.


Topic of: Allah knows who's right or wrong - He knows and He blessed us with Criterian, knowledge and tools to judge that also. "Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed..." (2:213).

The best discourse is the course of middle path - a balanced approach between rejection and extremism. That is between forcefullness and ignoring people in any condition - meaning, do not force your belief and understanding upon others nor accept others way as a possible way of salvation. Instead, share your belief and practice with others and leave room for others to make a choice. Because none can enter no-ones heart by force. To judge authenticity of the message reaches you, check it against Quran and sunnah; and recheck it before you take it to people because it is a trust and you will be held accountable for it.
Posted on 9/28/2005 10:22:10 PM
Assalam o alaikum, and Thanks SD!

Where you disagreed, you didnt get me there. Look at what i wrote, i said "even force if necessary" not that "always force". Where it is necessary, i think it should also be described (it was my error using "force" without "clear" explanation, i didnt think anyone could get it in a wrong way).

Firstly, the post was about Muslim sects, not about believers and disbelievers. You said "Allah SWT gave an open choice to people to either believe or disbelieve", i agree, but this is for the choice between relegions, meaning no one can be forced to embrace Islam. This is not the case here. Here the mentioned people are those who call themselves Muslims. Now if a Muslim believes in something or does something that is againt Islam (which may or may not make him a disbeliever) then it may affect

1- himself and his personal life
2- Islam and muslim society

As long as his act is concerned to himself only, he cannot be forced to reject his beleif/act. But if it affects Islam and the society, it is the responsibility of every Muslim and the people in power in particular to stop him. He cannot be allowed to harm Islam and other Muslims and the society. It is not very difficult to understand. Our Prophet himself ordered us "if you see something happening evil stop it by hand, then by tongue...". He said "whoever respected an Innovator, he helped the Innovator in destructing the building of Islam". He ordered us to break relations with such people, isnt it also an example of force for changing beliefs? Last three of the four examples i given in my last post are "clear" examples of spreading the truth and emiminating falsehood and disbeliefs by FORCE. Muselma and his followers were forced to abandon their belief, and were eventually killed. Hazrat Abu Bakar forcefully took zakaat from the rejectors. Hazrat Ali killed those people who changed the meanings of Quranic verses (Inal hukmu illa lillah) and misinterpretted it. What else examples can anyone want? This is indeed a balanced approach between rejection and extremism. We do not interfere in anyone's personal life, not allow anyone to harm Islam and Muslism by their evil beliefs and deeds.

In fact that applys to non-muslims too. If they try to pollute our society with evil beleifs and deeds, we will forcefully stop them, whether anyone like it or not.

Wallahu A'lam.
Posted on 9/29/2005 10:23:40 AM
i totaly agree with Badal's second post,ofcourse if someones beliefs or practices are harmfull to muslim society,he must be stopped.but basically I started this topic in order to discuss the tendency to call anyone kafir whose perception of Islam only slightly differs from our own perception(I have deliberately used the word perception and not belief)as Badal has quite rightly pointed out that if we take someone's statement out of context,it may sound very misleading.what is happening now is that those who believe that Holy Prophet was Noor,call those people kafir who believe otherwise and vice versa.similarly,those who follow an Imaam,call those a kafir who dont and so on.denying the basic Arkaan-e-Islam is other thing where Badal has misunderstood my view point.
Posted on 9/29/2005 6:59:34 PM
Yours now point of view is a little different with what anyone can interpret from your first post. Remember you mentioned "99 qualities of Kufr". There was not even a clue to "difference of perception only". I explained only what was obvious from your post, and I think SD took the same meanings as i have taken. And still, difference of perception regarding beliefs may also lead to kufr. So its doesnt make much difference.

Yes, you are right regarding the issues mentioned (but all are not mere perceptions). These issues have been exaggerated (mostly by common people who do not have much knowldge and some so-called scholars) but still i dont think they call others kafirs just because of this, though they consider others as have gone astray.

As all of us Muslims believe that Allah created Hazrat Muhammad much before creating this whole universe and the earth. We do not know how was he, but obviously he wasnt a Bashar as the first man was Adam. So we call him Noor to describe him. When he came to the earth he came in the form a real Man, but his originality (what we call Noor) didnt lost, but was covered by Manhood. In this world his Bashariyat was prevalent, and sometimes his Nooriat was prevalent (his existence before the creation of this world, and his ascention to the heavens on Lailatul Isra' are examples). So both concepts of his bashariyat and nooriyat equally justify. Now its fault of the human misunderstanding (specially of the common people) that cause such differences. Most prominent scholars didnt differed on this issue. Whenever it has been made an issue, it is the fault of lack of knowledge. (However, if someone claims that his Noor was a part of Allah's Noor or a shadow of it, as some people claim today, then he has really gone astray and needs to be condemned, as he is denying Quran. Allah say, nothing is like him, lest being a part. It will be considered a belief contrary to Islam and may cause Kufr. Look, here comes the difference.)

The issue of following an Imaam is quite different. It requires a full length topic to explain it. I will just touch it. It is indeed necessary to follow 'Ulil Amr' (literally, people who have given authority, and it means, according to Hazrat Abdullah inbe Abbas, the Ulema of Islam and Fiqh). Allah says:

"O you that have imaan, obey Allah and obey the Rasul and those given the authority to command (Ulil Amr) from among you." (Holy Qur’an 4:59)

And:

"Fas aloo Ahl al dhikri in kuntum laa ta’lamoon (Ask Ahl al-Dhikr if you do not know)." (Holy Qur’an, 16:43)

Allah didnt say open up Quran and books of Ahadith and follow according to your own interpretations, instead he said obey Ulil Amr and ask Ahle Zikr of what you do not know. These are the people who learnt the real interpretations from their teachers, the teachers of whom were eventaully our Prophet who learnt from Allah directly. Just a single question is sufficient to open up anyone's eyes. If anyone can rightly interpret what has been revealed to us, then why Allah needed to send a Prophet to us? Instead he could just give us a Book explaining everything and thats all. Can anyone answer it?

Regarding to our four Imaams of Fiqh, in addition to the above, we should also remember that our Prophet said, my Ummah will never gather on the wrong. At time of these Imaams there was not a single Muslim who was not a follower of any of them, neither was there any belief that was contrary to all of them. So it became the consesus of the Muslim Ummah that whoever goes against them now will go astray. Obviously if Muslims at that times were not on wrong, then essentially whoever goes against them should be on wrong.

Now the fact is that the followers of these Imaams do not cosider non followers as kafirs, however if they go against Imaams they condider them gone astray (sect 'fi zalalah', not kafir). But you know there are some extremists too, specially the so-called Ulemas who are fond of giving rulings on such delicate matters.
Posted on 9/29/2005 11:10:29 PM
Badal,thanks for correcting me where I was wrong.Allah aap ko is ki jaza dey.now let me share an incident with u.I have a friend Afzal,who was by birth a catholic.3 years ago he embraced Islam when he read the khutba hajjatulwidaa.the mosque where he was converted into islam belonged to deobandis.he received his basic education of the religion there.yhen he moved to our area where the mosque is run by burelvis.in a speech,once our mulla labelled deobandis as kafir because they say this and that etc.now that puzzled our friend so he went to the mulla who had converted him.he in return told him that it were actually burelvis who were kafirs because...blah blah.more confused,Afzal our friend came to us.we were at the time not in a very serious mood so after exchange of some jokes we told him not to worry as both the sects were muslim and it is only murgha and halwa that they actually fight over.but he was so disgusted that he said he did not want to associate with any of these two sects.a friend told him again not to worry because he still had another seventy packages to choose from.we all laughed but Afzal was still confused.he asked what was the sect of MUHAMMAD(P.B.U.H)?We said he did not need to have any he asked then why do we need to have any and went away.he is still a very good practicing muslim and generally follows Imaam Abu Hanifa as we do.but he does not believe in getting associated with a sect.my question is that actually the four Imaams of ehle sunaa and those of ehle tashie were very great scholors who interpreted the Quran and Hadith according to the best of their knowledge and wisdom,who gave us the answers to all those questions in the light of Quran o sunnah,that were difficult for us ordinery muslims to answer.in short each one of them gave us his own version of Islam and they agree with each other on almost 90 percent issues,many are still debatable.so far so good but still why we should just blindly follow any one of them on all the matters? they have done their duty why dont we,I mean the Ummah and specially its Ullemas do their part of the job.why dont we compere and reconcile their works.why dont we try to reach a consensus regarding our religion?ALLAH and HIS HOLY PROPHET cannot be wrong anyway,but all the Imaams were after all human beings no matter how pious,how prudent they were.who can say that Abu Hanifa or Imaam Malik or any other was and is absolutely right on all matters.now that we have access to more Ahaadith then say our Imaam Abu Hanifa had,now that we have more worldly knowledge at our disposal to correctly interpret those matters that relate to practical lives of us all in this age,still is it right to just keep our eyes closed and let our Imaams take us where ever they do?suppose if the matters relating to divorce are Allah na karey not right in our Fiqqah,what will we do in the judjement day,put all the blame on our Imaam.that will surely not work there.by the way,please dont assume that I am personally against Imaams or Firqas.I am just trying to find the truth,so help me.   
Posted on 9/30/2005 12:09:36 PM
It is much pleasing to see your quest for the truth. But isnt it a fact that overlooking these matters wont show the truth either? There do exist some differences between deobandies and brelvis, and they are of minor nature, and should not be bothered about. Also, getting associated with any of them isnt necessary (its better to not label yourself as brevli or deobandi).It should be noted that they both are followers of the same Imaam of Fiqh, so how come there be severe differences? (But I too still have some reservations on brelvi side).

What you said in rest of your post, i should summarize and arrange it as: Imaams interpreted the Quran and Hadith (no, they learnt it from Sahaba, Sahaba were their primary source) according to the best of their knowledge and wisdom. But they were after all human beings, no one can say that one or the other is absolutely right on all matters. Now we have access to more Ahadith, we have more worldly knowledge at our disposal to correctly interpret those matters that relate to practical lives of us all in this age. So we should compare and reconcile their works, and try to reach a consensus regarding our religion.

This is only a single question, Should we follow Imaams (Ulil Amr, relegious scholars) or should we interpret the Quran and Ahadith ourselves if we do not satisfy with their rulings?

I assume you didnt properly read my opinion about this issue in my last post or just overlooked it, as I already answered these questions there. Please read it carefully and let me explain a little more. I already presented two Quranic verses in which Allah orders us to follow the Islamic Scholars instead of relying on our own understanding.

"O you that have imaan, obey Allah and obey the Rasul and those given the authority to command (Ulil Amr) from among you." (Holy Qur’an 4:59)

And:

"Fas aloo Ahl al dhikri in kuntum laa ta’lamoon (Ask Ahl al-Dhikr if you do not know)." (Holy Qur’an, 16:43)

I also asked a question that if everyone can rightly interpret the Quran and Ahadith, then why Allah needs to send Prophets to us? Look whay Allah says:

"He is the One who raised up among the unlettered, a Messenger from among themselves who recites to them the verses, and purifies them and teaches the Book and the Wisdom." (62:2)

Note carefully, he didnt send Prophet to recite His verses only, but also to TEACH them the Book and Wisdom. We cant interpret it correctly by just reading it, but by LEARNING it and LEARNING wisdom. It is obvious that a SELF taught engineer can be an engineer, a SELF taught doctor wont be called a doctor, similarly the knowledge and wisdom comes by learning from a teacher not by reading. Arnt we be denying Allah otherwise?

Look from another perspective. If someone say to you 'open up Quran, theres written do not come near Namaz while you are intoxicated, so intoxicants are fobidden only for Namaz and not otherwise'. So why should you not follow the Quran and consider the drinking lawful? You will have to read full Quran and Ahadith to find the answer. Ordinary people simply cant do that they will have to ask the Knowledgeable for it. We have to learn whole Quran, Ahadith, Usool, and much more to make an opinion about a matter. Now see what our Prophet said about the people who have already done that work:

"The best people are those living in my generation (Sahaba), and then those who will follow them (Tabieen), and then those who will follow the latter (Taba Tabieen). Then there will come some people who will bear witness before taking oaths, and take oaths before bearing witness." (Sahih bukhari)

Best in what? Best in their beliefs, deeds, and understanding of Islam. Our Imaams were Tabieen and Taba Tabieen. Now some people ask us to reject the rulings of these best people and interpret the Quran and Ahadith according to what seems better to us. It is ridiculous. How can we compare ourlseves to these people whose righteunous has been attested by our own Prophet? Its just a deception of the Devil who wants to take us away from the guidance.

Shaytan also whispers in our minds that now you have more resources, more collection of Ahadith, so you can make "better" laws for your new generation yourselves. Its a deception only as what we have was also at that time, if it wasnt then how it reached us? Also they LEARNT Quran and Ahadith from Sahaba who were the students of our Prophet, and our Prophet direcly learnt from Allah. That is not the case with us. A i explained earlier knowledge comes by learning, not just by reading. And who can claim to be a better teacher than our Prophet and his companions? You know Shaytan whispers in minds, while Allah shouts.

Shaytan also decieves us by saying that they were after all human beings, so they can make error. Its can be, but not where the interest of the whole of his Ummah and Islam is concerned. As our Prophet said that his Ummah will never gather on the wrong. In the hadith i mentioned above our Prophet himself attests their righteonous.

Look at another Hadith that shows the necessity of following (earlier) People (the scholars) not just Books:

"Verily, Allah does not take away knowledge by snatching it from the people, but (this is done) by causing (the death) of the scholars until none of them is left alive. People would then appoint ignorant leaders for themselves who would be consulted in matters of religion and they would give Fatawas without knowledge, falling into misguidance and misguiding others." (Sahih Muslim)

This hadith proved two things. 1) Knowledge is in hearts of Ulemas, when they will die knowledge will be taken away. Quran will be there, books of Ahadith will be there, but no knowledge. Knowledge of Quran and Sunnat transfers through the hearts of Scholars. 2) After the death of early Ulemas, people will appoint ignorant leaders for themselves, what is going on now. So we have a very good reason to follow our rightly guided early Scholars instead of today's leaders or our own perceptions.

Yet another deception from the Devil, that Prophet asked us to follow Quran and Sunnah but you are following these Imaams sayings, as he said:

"O mankind, I am leaving two things with you, if you cling to them you will never go astray. The Book of Allah and my way of life." [Al-Haakim and Al-Baihaqi]

We are indeed following Quran and Sunnah in its best form, as Quran and Sunnah are not the names of Books, it is the message of Allah and His Prophet's path, its the knowledge of Deen, which has reached us through these rightly guided people. We read Quran and Sunnah from Books but learn from them. Also they didnt say anything at their own, but by Quran and Sunnah. People now say, do not learn Quran and Sunnah from them (these people who got the certificate from the Prophet of being best amomg his Ummah, will misguide you), instead read it yourself and act according to your own interpretations.

I hope you will be satisfied now. Another thing you mentioned is the issue of divorce. I should mention it that there is no difference of opinion about it in all of the the Imaams. Several hundered years after them, some ignorant people created some confusion about it.

Wallahu A'lam.
Posted on 9/30/2005 6:55:03 PM
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