Homosexuality

--------- i dont think so its getting common in pak

infact

we r in habbit of exploiting things

we r in habbit of yelling for nuthing

we r in habbit of concealing da truth

n we r juz promoting our own benefit

mukhatara mayee .. sonia naz all r clear examples

we r living in dead society

we r found of money

n we can do any thing to get money

n for dat

we r going to promote our week n bad points

juz coz we need/love money we dont want solutions we juz want use less debates over nuthing ...

we r dead

we r dead


oh lord save us

we r dead

Badal said:

jjpr said:

Why is there so much homosexuality in Pakistan?

In pak? As many others pointed out, I will also ask how homox can be connected to "pak"? Being created for Islam does not mean it should necesarily be free from crimes, is it? It only means such crimes wont be allowed here, and they will be punished, and not that there will be no crime.

So much? Can you expalain how much? You listened to an incident and immediately started questioning why is there "so much" homox in pak, huh!! And by the way, there is also much robbery, murders etc, but no one has time to think about it. What seems "fanciful" we immediately starting questioning about it, its ridiculous.

Well well, first of all can I ask what incident you are referring to, because I started this thread with NO SPECIFIC incident in mind, I was asking a general question.
Secondly if you check other threads in the section you will notice that I have aslo started one, PAKistan, asking why there is so much "murders and robbery" as you say in Pakistan.
Thirdly I am not saying that these people should be discriminated against but they should be educated and where required be helped.
Homosexuality is wrong in Islam.

I find some of your comments confusing, are you condoning or condemning homox?

Badal said:

Amazing, Allah didnt feel any mercy for these "disable" homos, and destroyed the whole of the nation of Prophet Lut! Allah must be cruel and devoid of any mercy for his own creatures (just like us?) to do that to them. Really, is He? Can you dare saying that while still being a Muslim? Answer me now, both of you (specially ashkhan you are proud of your parents being very knowledgeable, show me your own knowledge).

Badal are you saying this about Allah? Do you believe he was?

jjpr said:

Well well, first of all can I ask what incident you are referring to, because I started this thread with NO SPECIFIC incident in mind, I was asking a general question.
Secondly if you check other threads in the section you will notice that I have aslo started one, PAKistan, asking why there is so much "murders and robbery" as you say in Pakistan.
Thirdly I am not saying that these people should be discriminated against but they should be educated and where required be helped.
Homosexuality is wrong in Islam.

I find some of your comments confusing, are you condoning or condemning homox?

jjpr said:

Badal said:

Amazing, Allah didnt feel any mercy for these "disable" homos, and destroyed the whole of the nation of Prophet Lut! Allah must be cruel and devoid of any mercy for his own creatures (just like us?) to do that to them. Really, is He? Can you dare saying that while still being a Muslim? Answer me now, both of you (specially ashkhan you are proud of your parents being very knowledgeable, show me your own knowledge).

Badal are you saying this about Allah? Do you believe he was?

Yes, I appologise, I didnt see the other topic, but it was a side comment and mostly ppl do the same. But my question is the same, does being PAKistan or for Islam mean there cant be any crime? And how much homox is there? more than India? America? France? Germany? Autralia?

And obviously i am condemning it. I am surprised why you couldn see it..

{Badal are you saying this about Allah?} Oh God! look at the comments closely. I am asking this to these ppl who are teaching us the lesson of mercy for the homos. Allah didnt feel any any mercy for them, instead destroyed the whole nation for this crime, then why should we? He asked us to punish them not to love them, they deserve no mercy like rapers, child molesters, robbers, murderers ect dont deserve. If they do deserve then Allah must be cruel because he didnt feel any mercy for them. I am asking from them whether they think so that Allah is cruel? Obviosly I cant even think so.

My apologies to you Badal as with all due respect I had a bit of difficulty understanding your text.

Secondly I am aware of what goes on in other countries but I am asking specifically about Pakistan, I am not saying there cant be crime there that would be hard, merely asking why this is happening in Pakistan, not UK US or France etc, but Pakistan. It seems to be more prevalent in this so-called Islamic country than others. I would expect these kind of things to be existent on a large scale in Western countries that are full of Jahaliah, not in Pakistan but of course there is much Jahliah in Pak obviously.

Chandramuki said:

oh please - there is a major differance between a rapist or criminal and a homosexual, why are you comparing them? in essence criminals hurt people and someone having sex in the privacy of their bedroom is not making anyone a victim or looting anyone.

so when a spouses cheats, also sleep with someone in the privacy of their (some kind of) bedroom. By all means, its for pleasure with consent of both parties.

Why is that a crime or at least immoral?

AshK and CM, its not our desire that sets moral limits on what constitutes immoral and crime, its the Creator who sets those limits. We, humans are biased to our liking, disliking and our limited knowledge and wisdom.

AK, It bothers me the least how you judge me but lemme tell you one thing, what you call extreme may not be exterme to sum1 else. likewise, whatevaz balanced to yah may be extreme to sum1 else.

JJ

So your opinion is that if Pakistan is an Islamic country there should no crimes, homox etc. "Islamic" <= note it. Do you think Christianity preaches homox, or Judaism preaches homox, or Hinduism preaches homox, or Budhism preaches homox? Dont all these relegion condemn homox? Then why is there "so much" homox, in America, UK, India, France, Austrlia? Why cant anyone question this then? Dont say me that these are secular countries, contries maybe be secular but more than 95% people have some relegion and are bound by some Laws. Obvioulsy all relegions and Laws (most if not all) condemn it, Islam is no exception. Nor is Pakistan. I may say this is a lack of understanding only to pinpoint Islam and pakistan.

maryam. said:

molests them?
what do you mean smooth?

I pray to Allah no child's ever molested. May He protect your children and mine.

I didn't mean it the way it came out. sorry for the slip up.
What I meant was, when you have children, you think about protecting your children from molesters and do care about who they hang out with and who's around them. That's when you really care (I speak for myself)!

Child molesting is crime and so is homosexuality. Allah declared it as a crime. We do care about what happens in the society becuz we live in it and it affects us and our children.

Smooth_daddy said:

Chandramuki said:

oh please - there is a major differance between a rapist or criminal and a homosexual, why are you comparing them? in essence criminals hurt people and someone having sex in the privacy of their bedroom is not making anyone a victim or looting anyone.

so when a spouses cheats, also sleep with someone in the privacy of their (some kind of) bedroom. By all means, its for pleasure with consent of both parties.

Why is that a crime or at least immoral?

AshK and CM, its not our desire that sets moral limits on what constitutes immoral and crime, its the Creator who sets those limits. We, humans are biased to our liking, disliking and our limited knowledge and wisdom.

AK, It bothers me the least how you judge me but lemme tell you one thing, what you call extreme may not be exterme to sum1 else. likewise, whatevaz balanced to yah may be extreme to sum1 else.

No no SD, adultry is a crime and affects the lives the spouse and his family. Homosexuality can also affect the lives of people involved, but I meant it without any other factors attached, e.g, a single gay with anotehr single gay, no cheating on eachother. Under that condition, it's no one's buisness.

Educating people about what's right and wrong is important, so if kids knew from any early age (an early appropriate age) that homosexuality, rape, molestation, touching one self etc were very wrong, and that having intergrity is the most important thing to have in one's character, their zameer should be against those things. But these topics are considered taboo to talk about.

Iqra was the first word of revelation, and that shows how important reading/writing and education is. If there is a wider access to education in Pakistan alot of these problems would solved.

Chandramuki said:

No no SD, adultry is a crime and affects the lives the spouse and his family. Homosexuality can also affect the lives of people involved, but I meant it without any other factors attached, e.g, a single gay with anotehr single gay, no cheating on eachother. Under that condition, it's no one's buisness.

What about the raper who rapes someone without hurting her? How could it affect her life afterwards if not a third persons knows this?

Who decided adultery is a crime? Allah has declared adultery and homosexuality crimes and sins. Laws of morality are decided by Allah not by huumans, who are we to declare that homox is not a crime and sin whether it affect anyone's life or not, when Allah has declared it a crime and sin?

Iqra? You better read that Quranic verses again i mentioned before. The same "Iqra" tells us its a sin and how these sinners should be treated. You may wish to remove those and many other verses that condemn homos. Try your best, you cant do it.

No CM: why are you adultrophobic?


I don't mean to mock at you. It isn't what you approve or I approve as an immoral act. It is what matters to God is the standard.

We are talking about repulsing an immoral act. Those who commit such a thing are criminals and must be treated so.

I agree wid the eding people and increasing awareness and Im wid yah on it.

Right on SD you're the voice of reason, I learn alot from you ofcourse God decides what's right and wrong, but it is up to the people to abide by it. 'criminals' just sounds like a wrong way to describe gays, i think 'sinners' is more appropriate and precise.

am i adultrophobic? hmm, well we can all aford one phobia!

Chandramuki said:

Right on SD you're the voice of reason, I learn alot from you ofcourse God decides what's right and wrong, but it is up to the people to abide by it. 'criminals' just sounds like a wrong way to describe gays, i think 'sinners' is more appropriate and precise.

am i adultrophobic? hmm, well we can all aford one phobia!

So eventually you agreed, God decides whats right and wrong, and its upto the people to abidy by or not, and you are not going to abide by it or accept it. You would have said this plainly earlier, you wasted our time and words.

No, gays are also criminals because there is a punishment for them, as every other criminal.

ajj ki dunya mein insan hona ki crime hai   

wait kero sarey
khabi na khabi haalat achey hongey
jus u khud na kharab hona

Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves (13:11)

Chandramuki said:

Right on SD you're the voice of reason, I learn alot from you ofcourse God decides what's right and wrong, but it is up to the people to abide by it. 'criminals' just sounds like a wrong way to describe gays, i think 'sinners' is more appropriate and precise.

am i adultrophobic? hmm, well we can all aford one phobia!

Im thankful to Allah - if i say something and it benfits someone.

Badal said:

So eventually you agreed, God decides whats right and wrong, and its upto the people to abidy by or not, ....

I never disagreed to that, take any one of my posts and show me where I said that being gay wasn't a sin. btw there is a differance between a sin and a crime, do i need to the dictionary out again for you?

CM: Sinning is against Allah. Sin is crime in the court of Allah. It may be condoned in worldly courts but convicts of it are criminals and punishbale in Allah's law.

Badal said:

JJ

So your opinion is that if Pakistan is an Islamic country there should no crimes, homox etc. "Islamic" <= note it. Do you think Christianity preaches homox, or Judaism preaches homox, or Hinduism preaches homox, or Budhism preaches homox? Dont all these relegion condemn homox? Then why is there "so much" homox, in America, UK, India, France, Austrlia? Why cant anyone question this then? Dont say me that these are secular countries, contries maybe be secular but more than 95% people have some relegion and are bound by some Laws. Obvioulsy all relegions and Laws (most if not all) condemn it, Islam is no exception. Nor is Pakistan. I may say this is a lack of understanding only to pinpoint Islam and pakistan.

Badal I dont know what your problem is, I have already stated that I am ASKING ABOUT PAKISTAN, I am not interested at this point in any other country why is it so hard for you to understand? I have also already stated that it would be hard to think that no sins can take place in the country.
And yes As Pakistan "IS SUPPOSSED TO BE" an Islamic coubtry then there should not be any sins. Please read this last sentence carefully.

Chandramuki said:

Badal said:

So eventually you agreed, God decides whats right and wrong, and its upto the people to abidy by or not, ....

I never disagreed to that, take any one of my posts and show me where I said that being gay wasn't a sin. btw there is a differance between a sin and a crime, do i need to the dictionary out again for you?

Quran is my dictionary, i have already shown its meanings from dictionary.

Its a sin and a crime too, if not, why Allah destroyed Qoum e Lut? just answer it. And why Allah ordered us to punish them?

I already raised many questions, but you wasnt able to answer a single, try again.

jjpr said:

Badal said:

JJ

So your opinion is that if Pakistan is an Islamic country there should no crimes, homox etc. "Islamic" <= note it. Do you think Christianity preaches homox, or Judaism preaches homox, or Hinduism preaches homox, or Budhism preaches homox? Dont all these relegion condemn homox? Then why is there "so much" homox, in America, UK, India, France, Austrlia? Why cant anyone question this then? Dont say me that these are secular countries, contries maybe be secular but more than 95% people have some relegion and are bound by some Laws. Obvioulsy all relegions and Laws (most if not all) condemn it, Islam is no exception. Nor is Pakistan. I may say this is a lack of understanding only to pinpoint Islam and pakistan.

Badal I dont know what your problem is, I have already stated that I am ASKING ABOUT PAKISTAN, I am not interested at this point in any other country why is it so hard for you to understand? I have also already stated that it would be hard to think that no sins can take place in the country.
And yes As Pakistan "IS SUPPOSSED TO BE" an Islamic coubtry then there should not be any sins. Please read this last sentence carefully.

It is "SUPPOSSED TO BE" that there should not be any sin because its an Islamic country. Similarly it is "SUPPOSSED TO BE" that there should ne no sins in other countries too because they also have some relegion and authorities who DO condemn sins and enforce laws to stop them from sinning. So why are there so much crimes in other countries?

I just wanted to say that pinpointing pak or Islam can not be justified, its a problem for all nations and all countries, for whole of the world. Not only pak is "SUPPOSSED TO BE" free from crimes, but the whole world is. And furthermore, the causes are the same whether its pak or any other country, the moral degradation, lusts and desires, we all know that.

Badal said:

Chandramuki said:

Badal said:

So eventually you agreed, God decides whats right and wrong, and its upto the people to abidy by or not, ....

I never disagreed to that, take any one of my posts and show me where I said that being gay wasn't a sin. btw there is a differance between a sin and a crime, do i need to the dictionary out again for you?

Quran is my dictionary, i have already shown its meanings from dictionary.

Its a sin and a crime too, if not, why Allah destroyed Qoum e Lut? just answer it. And why Allah ordered us to punish them?

I already raised many questions, but you wasnt able to answer a single, try again.

*sighs* Quran isn't a dictionary, that's degrading it, but then you use terms in your own way so i'm not surprized you'd be using other things differently as well. you irritate me, there are two types of questions people ask, one, those who are trying to find an answer to increase their knowlegde, and two, those who ask just for sake of stirring trouble and getting at people in an argumentative and jahaal manner. Your questions are not only unclear but fall into catagory two so i don't have the patience to deal with you.

your wierd reasoning, patronising and arrogant manner are not going to conform my thinking and ideology, so you should just give it a rest.

If you really are in this to benifit others, follow SD's exapmle of mature, learned and modest approach. You've been constantly trying to put me down in hopes of "defeating" me, well firstly that's not going to happen, I've dealt with people like you before and you don't scare or intimidate me, and yes it has just been me, i don't know why, maybe because I'm a girl and you're sexist, you haven't once commented on anyone else, for a homophobic like you it's surprizing you didn't once comment on BadShah's remark on use all being a bit homosexual.

If you keep coming at people with a big headed and demeaning attitude which makes you look like you're trying to intimidate rather than explain, it's going to get you no where.

oh,please...give us a break yaar.u 2 have really taken it to your hearts.chander mukhi has every right to keep an opinion and so does badal or anyone else for that matter.apna view point samjhain zaroor but dont impose it on others.i wonder where our mods.hide whenever there is an argument.

interesting views




i ve just one thing to add
dont compare pak with other contries,,, the best way to hide ur dark side is to say that it also happen in other contries,,,
y do we care so much abt the rest of the world as we never adopt their qualities,, instead when its question of a wrong practice we hide behind the sentence "bure log aur jaga bhi hote hein"
wot was the need for a separate MUSLIM STATE then ??
agar sab baki jaga jaisa hona hai to PAK ki kya zaroorat hai

sall i hope n wish from my deepest heart u succeed in changin pakistan to a perfect clean n crime pak islami country . (Ameen)

Badal & CM you are not very far apart in your opinions. Its only the positions we are taking so very strongly that make us bitter and unforthcoming.

This is a very interesting topic. We must build on it in a positve way.

Sall, your point - well taken. People say that to justify their own actions or whatever wrong happens around them. Instead one should acknowledge and recognizie wrong and immoral practices. That's first step toward correction and moral uplifting.

o.k.homo- sxuality is reality in pakistan,phir kya kia jay?

nikama said:

o.k.homo- sxuality is reality in pakistan,phir kya kia jay?

Ye kia jay:

Educate your children early on that homosexuality is haraam, it doesn't have to be said that way, but carried out in practise, like don't let them dress with other boy/girls, build a strong sense of sharaam in them.

can sense of sharam, as u put it,b acquired or is it God gifted?